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ThrowbackThursday: ArtStreams Magazine, 1996-2005

A sample of ArtStreams magazines from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory

#ThrowbackThursday – Today we time travel back October 1996. The former Shire of Eltham Municipal Offices building has recently been bulldozed and razed from existence. A planning permit has been issued to build a shop, petrol station and community facility on the site and the Eltham Community Action Group has just been formed as a consequence.

Peter Dougherty who has been involved in the local art scene for many years has just established a new arts magazine, ArtStreams, for which he acts as publisher and editor. Volume 1, No. 1, November 1996 edition has just gone on sale. Peter’s comments on the various branches of the arts are widely respected. His “The Arts” column in the Diamond Valley Leader presents a brief summary for a much wider cross section of the local community. Peter also operates his own gallery and the Artstreams Cafe at the St Andrews market. Peter has a wealth of knowledge about present day and historical aspects of local art and artists.

Unfortunately the recent events were too close to publication to reference in the inaugural issue but his editorial comment published in the second issue is reproduced below.

Scrapbook album created 1997 by a member of the Eltham Community Action Group in participation with various artists, writers, local business people and other local citizens, which was sent to Planning Minister Maclellan in protest of proposed plans to sell the former Eltham Shire Office site at 895 Main Road Eltham to develop a Shell Service Station and Hungry Jacks fast food outlet. The purpose was to express what is unique about the character of Eltham, why people live and work there and why such a development would be out of character and inappropriate for the Eltham Gateway along with alternative development proposals. This protest was the catalyst for the formation of the Eltham Community Action Group. (from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

ArtStreams magazine was published for ten years. In all there were ten volumes commencing with Vol. 1, No. 1, November 1996 and finishing with Vol 10. No. 5, Summer Edition 2005-06.

Eltham District Historical Society is very fortunate to hold a complete set of Volumes 1-9 and recently they have been digitised in their entirety and will prove to be an extremely valuable resource for researching our local art and cultural scene. However, we are missing all five issues from Volume 10, the final volume published.

Do you have, or know of someone who may have issues from Volume 10 who would be willing to donate them to us to complete our collection, or at least loan them to us for digitisation? We would be most appreciative of the opportunity to complete this wonderful collection and build upon the resource it will offer to our community.

Notice of Applications for Planning Permit, 895 Main Road, Eltham, September 1996 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Scrapbook album created 1997 by a member of the Eltham Community Action Group in participation with various artists, writers, local business people and other local citizens, which was sent to Planning Minister Maclellan in protest of proposed plans to sell the former Eltham Shire Office site at 895 Main Road Eltham to develop a Shell Service Station and Hungry Jacks fast food outlet. The purpose was to express what is unique about the character of Eltham, why people live and work there and why such a development would be out of character and inappropriate for the Eltham Gateway along with alternative development proposals. This protest was the catalyst for the formation of the Eltham Community Action Group. (from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

 

“my word”, Peter Dougherty, ArtStreams, Dec 1996-Jan 1997, p2
The vacating of the former Eltham shire office building presented an opportunity for the Shire of Nillumbik to use it to serve the needs of the community. The loss of the building presents the opportunity to replace it with one which will serve those needs and provide a visual welcome to the township of Eltham.

Whatever is built on that site will become the new face of Eltham and form part of the library-Shillinglaw Cottage mini environment. The commissioners have apparently decided that a hamburger joint, petrol station and video store will do the job.

Looked at from a needs perspective these uses are hard to justify. Eltham has a petrol station on the corner of Mt Pleasant Road, another in Bridge Street and two on the main road heading north. There can’t be too many cars on the road that couldn’t make it from any of these to another without refuelling.

The community is already well served in the area of fast food services, and if another hamburger outlet is really needed it could probably be accommodated within the existing shopping centre. With the arrival of cable TV, it would appear that video rental is not likely to be a spectacular growth industry and the community is already well served.

So what does Eltham need?

The Shire Council is launching a strategy to attract more tourism into the region with hopes of generating $27 million annually. Currently the tourism dollar is earned from such sources as St Andrews Market, Montsalvat, Sugarloaf Reservoir, the Diamond Valley Railway and a growing wine industry.

With careful marketing more income may be obtainable from these areas, but shouldn’t we also be looking closely at our other already recognised regional assets. Now could be the time to utilise the depth of creative talent and expertise which resides in the shire.

Nillumbik has many performing artists who, due to lack of facilities, always work outside the area, and visual artists in all fields who exhibit elsewhere because there are not enough suitable venues at home. With the best will in the world those working in the Shire’s arts areas cannot stretch the present facilities to meet the demand.

Political will to explore other possibilities was lacking when the decision was made to hand part of Montsalvat’s grounds over to the cemetery. This action severely diminished Montsalvat’s viability as a venue and led inevitably to the loss of the Jazz Festival and the prestige and income that it brought to Nillumbik.

A bold decision now could redress some of this loss and add to Nillumbik’s potential in the cultural tourism area without putting too much pressure on the environmental and ecological treasures which at present constitute so much of our major tourism assets.

 

References:
  • Eltham District Historical Society Newsletter No. 161, March 2005
  • “my word”, Peter Dougherty, ArtStreams, Dec 1996-Jan 1997, p2
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ThrowbackThursday: Demolition of Eltham Shire Offices, August 1996

#ThrowbackThursday – Today we time travel back to August 2nd, 1996 and 895 Main Road, Eltham, to the former Municipal Offices of the Shire of Eltham.

Eltham – Shire Office, at time of Main Road widening (formerly site of Shillinglaw Cottage), 1968. (Source: Shire of Eltham; from the Shire of Eltham Pioneers Photograph Collection No. 657 held jointly by Eltham District Historical Society and Yarra Plenty Regional Library.)

The Shire offices were opened in 1965 and extended in 1971 to establish the Eltham Library. The final meeting of the Eltham Shire Council was held in December 1994 before the forced amalgamations of municipal councils by the Kennett Government resulted in the cessation of the Shire’s existence after 125 years.  In July 1996 the State Government appointed Commissioners (1994-1996) made the decision to demolish the former Eltham Shire offices without any community consultation.

Eltham Shire Offices southern wing showing the Eltham Library, 1985-1986 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Eltham Shire Offices, 1985-1986 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Shillinglaw trees from the safety compound: Demolition of the Shire of Eltham Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Shillinglaw trees from the safety compound: Demolition of the Shire of Eltham Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

The demolition works started within 24 hours of that decision being made. It is claimed the building contains asbestos. However none of the workers or numerous other onlookers are wearing any protective gear as the heavy machinery batters our once proud building into submission. The rubble is simply dumped into open bins and dump trucks.

Dump trucks shuttle in to collect rubble; Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Dump trucks shuttle in to collect rubble; Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

Ultimately our land is sold to a developer, which precipitates a dramatic trail of community angst, threats of legal action, rescinding of the sale and the sacking of a newly elected council and several unsuccessful development proposals, by subsequent councils.

Back to the future and after all these years the vacant site is still there, still under threat (along with the Eltham War Memorial complex of buildings), still part of the soul of our community, still guarded by the three trees once outside the front of the Shillinglaw Cottage, providing a navigational beacon from past to present and onward we entrust, integral to the soul and heartbeat of Eltham; a treasured part our children’s future when they in turn look back to where their roots sprung from.

Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, 2 August 1996 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, 2 August 1996 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, 2 August 1996 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, 2 August 1996 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Fred Mitchell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Beryl Martin; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Fred Mitchell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Demolition of Eltham Sire Offices, 895 Main Road, Eltham, August 1996 ( Photo: Harry Gilham; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

 

 

 

 

Heritage Walk: Along the Diamond Creek – 3 November, 2018

We are pleased to advise that our Heritage Walk along the Diamond Creek, originally scheduled for July but cancelled due to inclement weather will now be held on Saturday, November 3rd.

The Diamond Creek is a major feature of the open space spine that runs through the centre of Eltham. From the time of the first European settlement of the area most of the land along the creek valley was private property extending to the centre of the creek. Over many years land has been purchased by the Council and the State Government to create a continuous open space system along at least one side of the creek, from central Eltham to the Yarra River. The area contains many places of historic interest.

Eltham Tennis Court, Bremner’s Flat (now Wingrove Park), c.1909 ( Sire of Eltham Pioneer’s Photograph Collection No. 720 held in partnership between Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory and Yarra Plenty Regional Library @YarraPlentyRegionalLibrary )

Our November excursion, similar to the originally planed July outing, will comprise a walk along the creek path starting at Wingrove Park, formerly Bremner’s Flats, and finishing at Central Park.

Eltham Central Park, c.1929 ( Sire of Eltham Pioneer’s Photograph Collection No. 684 held in partnership between Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory and Yarra Plenty Regional Library @YarraPlentyRegionalLibrary )

This is about 2 km one way and should take about 2 hours including plenty of time to stop and talk. There will be a return walk without much commentary but those who wish to can catch a bus back from the Eltham railway station. A particular point of discussion along the way will be the historic railway trestle bridge as to its history and its future given the proposal to duplicate this section of the railway.

Trestle Bridge, Eltham, c.1912; note the Catholic Church in Henry Street and Shillinglaw Cottage visible in background (from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society)

This walk on Saturday 3rd November will start at 2pm at the Wingrove Park parking area near the corner of Main and Mount Pleasant roads (Melway ref 21 J 8).

This excursion is free and is open to the general public as well as Society members.

Please note that dogs are not permitted on Society excursions.

The phone number for contact on the day is 0409 021 063.

ThrowbackThursday: Springtime Fair, Eltham Hall, 4 Oct 1946

#ThrowbackThursday – Today we time travel back to Friday, 4th October 1946. The town is a buzz with excitement as the Women’s Auxiliary to the Eltham War Memorial Trust have arranged for a Springtime Fair to be held in the Eltham Hall this afternoon, which is expected to continue into the evening.

The Fair is a special effort undertaken by the Women’s Auxiliary to raise funds for the establishment of the memorial, which is to take the form of a Baby Health Centre, Children’s Creche and Library. A block of land in a splendid position was recently purchased as the site on which the community centre will be built.

Mrs Cairns Officer is president of the Trust and chairman of the Women’s Auxiliary. Mesdames Dagnall and Tlngate are the honorary secretaries.

Cake Stall at the Eltham Fair c. 1940s. L-R: Mesdames Nation, Squire, Boyd, Edwards, Carroll, Battye and Brown
( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

 

Note:

The Eltham War Memorial building precinct is located at 903-907 Main Road, Eltham. The Memorial spans the area between Main Road and the railway line and is owned and managed by Nillumbik Shire Council (formerly Eltham Shire Council). It contains the  Eltham Maternal and Infant Welfare Centre, Eltham Food Share, the former Children’s Library (now War Memorial Hall) and Eltham Pre-School. The precinct also contains the Senior Citizen’s Centre though this was never part of the original Eltham War Memorial Trust buildings. The complex was developed by the Eltham War Memorial Trust Inc., as a form of living memorial as a ‘constant reminder to us of those who fought for us and the little ones for whom they fought and died’.

Reference:

1946 ‘FAIR FOR ELTHAM’ MEMORIAL’, The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 – 1954), 4 October, p. 14. , viewed 17 Oct 2018, http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article245527598

ThrowbackThursday: Birch Cottage, Christmas Hills, 1969

#ThrowbackThursday – Today we time travel back to circa 1969, to Birch Cottage on Watson’s Creek where we hope to join the occupant, Mrs Honor Williams (nee Birch) for a nice hot cuppa.

Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, Aug. 1969. ( Photo: George W. Bell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Detail, front wall, Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, Aug. 1969. ( Photo: George W. Bell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Detail, shed wall, Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, Aug. 1969. ( Photo: George W. Bell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Tea’s on the boil – Detail, kitchen, Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, Aug. 1969. ( Photo: George W. Bell; from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

Originally built by John Hill, a shoemaker at Kangaroo Ground around 1878.

In the late 1970s when our Society was the Shire of Eltham Historical Society, an offer was made to the Society regarding use of an old cottage at Christmas Hills. The cottage sat beside Watsons Creek just outside the then Shire of Eltham but following municipal restructuring it now lies within the Shire of Nillumbik. For various reasons the offer ultimately lapsed.

At that time some research on the cottage was carried out for the Society by Keith Chappel as part of a larger research project that he was doing. Keith’s notes were taken from Lands Department records and showed that the property was the subject of a permissive occupancy of Crown land comprising the creek reserve.

In 1903 a Miner’s Right of one acre in area was granted to Edwin Samuel Birch. In 1907 Birch applied to purchase this land but was unable to because it was part of the creek reserve. The documents show that the cottage existed at that time. Upon Birch’s death in 1932, his daughter, Honor Mary Birch was granted a permit to occupy the residence.

Honor Mary Birch, known as Nora, was born 1900, the daughter of Edwin Samuel Birch and Honor (nee Young). In 1939 she married George Henry Williams (aka Henry). Honor died 8 July 1976. Her siblings were Margaret Martin (dec), Bert Birch and Brigidene Brinkotter. In her will she gave and bequeathed “all the improvements on the land held by me at Christmas Hills under Permissive Occupancy from the Department of Land and Survey consisting of the house property thereon and all the contents of the said house to my nephew Brian Joseph Martin of Christmas Hills aforesaid farmer”.

The will described the property as a four room, five square house, about 100 years old with enclosed verandah, including kitchen, combined lounge dining room, bedroom and store room; built of ‘bush slabs’ with a corrugated iron roof. A dairy had been erected in 1935. After her death, the property was acquired by the Melbourne Metropolitan Board of Works in 1978.

The property is listed on the Victorian Heritage Database HO200-Hill, later Birch farm complex, 945 Eltham-Yarra Glen Road, Watsons Creek and described as:

The house has a steep but simply gabled roof form clad with corrugated iron, vertical adzed hardwood slab front wall construction, split palings to the gable ends; rubble freestone chimney at one end (with added gsi flue), pole-framed Graeme Butler & Associates, 2006: 101 Shire of Nillurnbik Planning Scheme Amendment C13 Heritage Assessments verandah (rebuilt?); six-pane double-hung sash windows; T&G bead-edge boarded ledged & braced door; and paling clad rooms added at verandah ends. A slab-clad large fireplace is at the north corner of the house, with a gsi upper cladding added and an internal lining of rubble stone.

The rear facade is different construction, being drop-slab, and sits beneath a rear skillion addition to the main gabled form: this may be more recent construction. The house appears to have been once set up for public display and may have been recreated in part for that purpose.

Outbuildings are reached by a track along the east side of the house, including what may have been a creamery (typical standard inter-war design clad with corrugated iron and lined with 1938 Lysaght Queens Head Australia galvanised sheet iron) and a paling clad gabled out-house. Timber outbuildings of differing eras are to the north-west of the house, with pole framing and paling infill construction and Redcliffe brand corrugated iron. Post and rail (front) and split paling (rear) fence remnants line the front boundary. Pepper trees part of house yard landscape.

Now, why not sit back and enjoy that hot cuppa Honor has poured for us as we cast our eyes back to the the future.

Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )
Birch Cottage (c.1878), Yarra Glen Road, Christmas Hills, 27 September 2018 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

 

The cottage now comes under the auspices of Parks Victoria. A notice out front states:

Historic sites form part of our nation’s cultural heritage.

The surrounding landscape and remaining features and artefacts help us to understand how people once lived and worked here.

Please help protect this heritage for present and future generation by leaving the site as you found it.

It is an offence to:

  • damage or remove artefacts and historic features
  • disturb archehaeological values by digging

References:

October Meeting – The Spirit of Eltham

Eltham District Historical Society Meeting

Wednesday, 10th October 2018 at 8pm

Eltham Senior Citizens’ Centre, Library Place, Eltham

Aerial view showing the Senior Citizen’s building on left, Shire of Eltham office, new Eltham Library and relocated Shillinglaw Cottage on right, 1994 ( from the collection of Eltham District Historical Society @elthamhistory )

At this Society meeting we will explore ideas about what is considered to be the ‘Spirit of Eltham’.

We will view a video produced for the Shire of Eltham in response to the 1985 Victorian Local Government Commission Report titled ‘The Restructure of Local Government in Victoria – Principles and Program’ (the Morris review). The recommendation was to amalgamate the Shires of Eltham and Diamond Valley, something that Eltham Council did not support as being appropriate for the shire or compatible with the ‘Spirit of Eltham’.

We will also be fortunate to have a presentation on this theme by Lynnsay Prunotto, a local architect, who is also involved in community planning activities, as well as some insights from Hamish Knox on his experience of growing up and working for many years in the region.

As always, Society members and visitors are most welcome to attend this meeting.

A part of our history

By Jim Connor
(Reproduced from EDHS Newsletter No. 242 October 2018)

In a world divided over so many issues it can be challenging at times to meet on common ground. Such is the situation we as a community are facing locally with the future of the World War Two War Memorial Complex of three buildings at 903-907 Main Road, Eltham. This complex is a very definite part of our history and once gone can never be replaced. A primary reason for the significance of the complex is for its construction as a memorial with a civic purpose and with a particular focus on the welfare of infants. It was intended to ‘be a constant reminder of those who fought for us and the little ones for whom they fought and died’. The construction of such a war memorial complex is rare in Victoria.

While these older buildings may not conform with current architectural merits or styles these were designed and constructed to reflect the desires, passions and interests of the era when built, and to symbolise achievements, failures or losses of that time.

895 and 903-907 Main Road, Eltham as advertised for sale, September 2018
(Photo: Frank Knight Real Estate)

These are part of a total package offered for sale in September 2018 on behalf of the Nillumbik Shire Council. It includes the extensive site area between the Eltham Library and the former Eltham Fire Station, and extending west from Main Road to the railway line. This land contains World War One and the World War Two memorials, the Eltham Senior Citizens’ Centre, the former Eltham Shire Office site and the locally significant Shillinglaw trees.

Both memorials commemorate the sacrifice and commitment of those who left Australia to fight for what they believed in and to protect those loved ones left behind. Despite requests and clear statements by our Society there is no confirmation from Council, at this stage, that these memorials and the Shillinglaw trees will be protected in any future development proposals. Neither memorial should be sacrificed in order to raise funds for other purposes.